Where do we go from here?

[SHATOUSHKA]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by GravyTrain:
I don't see where anything bad can come out of believing in God.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

except for hell [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[SHATOUSHKA]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by ?Gary?:
Jesus died on the cross for you.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, and walmart offers low prices.
that doesn't mean i'm getting a good bargain.

[SmokinLizzies]

ummmm..... errrrr..... WHAT????????

[Cyalaytr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">3 Tim believes in God, he is a devout Christian (or whatever religion he chooses). Upon death, Tim finds out there is no God, once again, nothing gained, nothing lost </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if I believe I am a millionair and live like a millionair and die like a millionair but then at the very very end find out there there was never really any "money" nothing gained nothing lost right? Sorry not meaning to mock you but you speak it as if since there is no God in the end and yet he or she still believed there was that there was nothing lost in this persons life.

How many times a day do you yourself ask God for guidance, help, forgiveness etc.. when you yourself need to lead the path. If he is all knowing and has your life "planned" before the day you were born why would you need to ask forgivness for something he already knew would happen?

There are too many contradictions in just trying to believe in someone so powerfulful that he would let his "children" suffer.

Which just brought about a wierd thought. Wasn't Satan a fallen angel? So if he was an angel at one time why would he choose to be the bad in the "yin/yang" sort of idealism? God himself creats contrasts if he exists. He speaks of love yet builds a world full of hate? I know you will say he didn't build it this way we became this way. Ahhh but back to the contradicting part. isn't he all knowing? And if he is then wouldn't there be some sort of flaw in his theroy we could all live and die in harmony?


Here is an example of Tim if you still want him :

Tim lives his whole life guiltless of how he acts or lives, doesnt beleive in God or a god. He wanders the earth doing as he chooses making decisions for himself and holding himself accountable for things he does or can change on his own. he doesnt live a bad life but he holds no regrets and makes no appologies. He lives happy and content until the very very end until like Barabbas and ask for fogiviness in the last bit of air and all is said and done:

There is no God ... nothing lost everything gained

There is a God.... Everything gained in this life, everything gained in the next life. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">If you wish there were a God, then why not believe, as I stated in my response to PI, I don't see where anything bad can come out of believing in God. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cruified for ones beliefs.. how ironic. Holy wars,
pastors and rabies (sp), and fathers all falling from the grace of God in such sick ways as molesting kids in church and with people like Jimmy Baker.... where do you start??? These are spose to be the people who know God and yet these things happen? Maybe they are just human like the rest of us and then again maybe there is no God and they (being the ones I mentioned) are all just sick and twisted people?? Just a thought.


"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Stephen Roberts


All from an interesting page I found though I am not "out an out " supporting all his views just rather he speaks a lot of what I could type here so rather then go on an on and on see the page


Is there a God? Click here


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma"> For example, I attend a Souther Baptist church, but I have the beliefs of a non-denominationl Christian. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

You also speak of this? So you are familiar with tithings? Tithing was one of the many commands that God gave to the Israelites. No where in the Bible is it taught that we should stop doing all the other things contained in those laws. If you are tithing then aren't you in a sense buying your way to Heaven? God doesn't need your money people need your money. Another contradiction among many in the church.

Once again who is right who is wrong? Maybe both, maybe neither. All I know is I won't pound on your door askign to to come join us "non believers" for a moment of silence with just us as we don't really have a God.

CYA


[img]eek.gif[/img]

[GravyTrain]

This is in reply Shatzy's first couple of posts.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">#1 -- as i have preached to tg many times, i
HATE when people use 'believe' in such a manner.
everyone 'believes' in god... otherwise, you
cannot hold a legitimate conversation. belief
merely establishes an 'idea'. and since most
everyone here understands the idea behind a god,
well.... i think i've explained enough.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you forget about atheists?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">i understand your analogy to 'busy work'...
but it also supports my argument that you are
only doing the 'work' for a profit... which,
if i am correct, undermines your whole xtianity
theory. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see how this undermines my whole CHRISTianity thing at all. I don't recall saying anything along those lines that Christianity can do nothing for profit. I apologize for lack of references, but this is all about personal opinions anyways. the Bible says that we should not do things to build up our lives here on earth, but to store our treasures in heaven. this means that yes, in a way, we are doing things for a profit. but like i said, i don't see where that is a problem

<font color="#ac0000" size="1">[ March 27, 2003 12:46 AM: Message edited by: GravyTrain ]</font>

[SHATOUSHKA]

i'm referring to the 'busy work' of being
'christ-like' for the profit of heaven.

and no, i didn't forget about atheists,
they were also included in that statement. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[GravyTrain]

Ivana:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">I'm seeing in a bit differently. I don't think any of us are put on earth for a specific purpose which does not make our live insignificant. We make our own purpose rather than expect someone else to tell us why we're here.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with you at all about the last statement. I believe we make our own purpose as well as far as what we do here in this world. We have choices as people, according Cristianity. I believe you have been confused by other opinions on this same view.


PoisonIvy
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Today, after the fact, I have to say I still don't believe. I saw nothing that could sway my way of thinking. I don't believe in god, simple as that. I personally, think all these poor people are going to die in vein, and there will be no fictional god there to lift them up. I dont say this to be mean or hurtful, believe me. I simply think that we have no greater purpose here on this earth, and when we die, we simply die..Hey, If I die and find out Im wrong, I'll deal with it, but I honestly dont think I am.. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good insight, and thank you for posting inspite of your fear of me ripping into you again, and please understand, that was all in fun.

I am sorry to hear that you did not enjoy your experience of learning and living a Christian lifestyle. I already stated my opinion about "just dying", so I won't explain that again. However, I am quite surprised with the last statement you made. I don't know if I would be willing to take that same gamble.

The way I see it there are four situations that can occur following your last statement. We will use Tim as an example.

1 Tim believes there is no God, he is not a believer in Christianity of any other religion. Upon death, Tim finds out there is no God, everything works out well. Nothing gained, nothing lost.

2 Tim believes there is no God, he is not a believer in Christianiy of any other religion. Upon death, Tim finds out there is a God and everything could not be worse. Tim spends eternity in eternal damnation (depending upon the religion that is ultimately correct, although all religions share similar beliefs)

3 Tim believes in God, he is a devout Christian (or whatever religion he chooses). Upon death, Tim finds out there is no God, once again, nothing gained, nothing lost

4 Tim believe in God, he is a devout Christian (or whatever religion he chooses). Upon deaht, Tim finds out that there is a God, and he spends eternity in heaven (or the antagonist to hell, depending on the religion)

The way I see it, in 2 of those situation, 1 and 3, nothing is gained nothing is lost, both cases where there is no God. Therefore, if the world were to end today, none of us would be better off than the next person. However, if there is a God, those who believe are in great shape, and those that don't believe are just well, not in very good shape. I don't understand the reasoning behind someone who would choose to not believe and take that chance or being dead wrong.

[GravyTrain]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#000000"><font size=2 face="Tempus Sans ITC, Tahoma">Originally posted by shatzy:
i'm referring to the 'busy work' of being
'christ-like' for the profit of heaven.

and no, i didn't forget about atheists,
they were also included in that statement. [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

what do you consider busy work? I don't understand that concept when it comes to the eternity of my life, and the lives of others I feel responsible for?

[SHATOUSHKA]

ok ok.... first, you aren't responsible for
another's life. (at least, IMO)

if that were true, then you would not only be
judged based on your life... but also on another's
life... and that isn't how i thought things worked.

secondly, based on your 'tim' example(s)...
it seems as if you are giving pascal's wager...
as opposed to offering a supportive argument
as to why god is real.

[SHATOUSHKA]

i have toyed with the idea of creating pamphlets
for cars on the walmart parking lot and going
door-to-door preaching atheism...

funny thing is, i know people would not feel
so guilty as to slam the door in my face